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Zombie Master  |  Zombie Master  |  Source code discussion  |  Topic: Ajunk's view on the future of ZM production « previous next »
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Author Topic: Ajunk's view on the future of ZM production  (Read 96253 times)
pizzamanjesus
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« Reply #60 on: March 03, 2009, 11:30:13 pm »




One thing ZM has that many mods do not is that death matters. Some maps take 10-15 minutes to complete. If you die real fast, you have to wait around. It's all about providing the opportunity for people to get into the game.

With a damage system like this, map makers could have the opportunity to instead of creating long, dull, and boring maps to make somewhat shorter maps but with a lot better quality and ingenuity. I'm sure it could also give the survivor something worth fighting for. And yeah little hints of approaching death could cover the no-hud thing.
Killroy
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« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2009, 12:54:57 am »

I say we just stick with this. And an empathic "NOOOOOOOO." to radial chat. The talking is one of my favorite parts of ZM, and how would it work as ZM or Spectators?

So, yeah. Stay with the current build and work up, get tGB to tell a coder what's important and what isn't, and get someone to work on the preparations for Steamworks.

I clicked on that link, but quickly closed the tab before it loaded upon realizing that the file name was whalecock.jpg.
goatfetus
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« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2009, 01:03:25 am »

hmmm, queues to tell the survivor that they're dying without any numbers on the hud...

How about some kind of view distortion and maybe have the player's aim waiver a bit, or maybe some kind of breathing that gets louder and more labored the closer that someone gets to death.

Remember Remember the 10 of December
jdoggy123
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« Reply #63 on: March 04, 2009, 01:57:01 am »

Seeing as making a mod can take anywhere from 2 to 5 years I'm not sure if a new ZM is the best idea, but right now I'm learning how to use XSI so if you go through with it, I might be able to make models. Definite "might" though
UnInvincible
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« Reply #64 on: March 04, 2009, 02:54:22 am »

Seeing as making a mod can take anywhere from 2 to 5 years I'm not sure if a new ZM is the best idea, but right now I'm learning how to use XSI so if you go through with it, I might be able to make models. Definite "might" though
Yeah but I'm pretty sure trying to convert the current code to the OB engine and adding or removing stuff we want will take just as long or longer.

my game keeps crashing as it loads, (i have all the expansion packs including the apartment life) and i am hearing that it might possibly be a custom content problem? how do i remove custom content?
McViolent
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« Reply #65 on: March 04, 2009, 02:57:12 am »

I'm assuming that Tanner is still pursuing his own endevours as far as Athena is concerned, but its been a long time since I was involved with any of that, are you sure he would help?
Yeah Athena is put on hold to do some of the custom content and I am awaiting for content of which I can work with to do some of the things I was meaning to do. So I may have some part in this renewal or continuation or whatever.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 02:58:19 am by Tannerbondy »
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« Reply #66 on: March 04, 2009, 03:00:22 am »

Yeah Athena is put on hold to do some of the custom content and I am awaiting for content of which I can work with to do some of the things I was meaning to do. So I may have some part in this renewal or continuation or whatever.
Woah, I quoted this when it said "Yeah Athena seems fucked. Tanner would help", but what it quoted is what you edited it too... weird.
Anyways, I was going to say "NOOOO" to Athena being put on hold, but "YES" to tanner helping out with ZM2 or ZM: OB Edition... or whatever it is called.

my game keeps crashing as it loads, (i have all the expansion packs including the apartment life) and i am hearing that it might possibly be a custom content problem? how do i remove custom content?
McViolent
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« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2009, 03:05:22 am »

I meant I can never seem to attract the right people to help out on work, then again Athena was never attractive. Anyways, I would help with this project.
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« Reply #68 on: March 04, 2009, 03:07:40 am »

Well ajunk wanted to start fresh with ZM's ideas on the OB engine, and I agree.

my game keeps crashing as it loads, (i have all the expansion packs including the apartment life) and i am hearing that it might possibly be a custom content problem? how do i remove custom content?
McViolent
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« Reply #69 on: March 04, 2009, 03:11:56 am »

I am leaving it up to the team to renew the Athena image since I really don't see it as my problem anymore. Anyways, The question is are we going to start the project up from scratch or are we going to receive the original source code to ZM to try to rebuild it upon the OB structure.
Ajunk
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« Reply #70 on: March 04, 2009, 03:22:07 am »

Zombie Master was not meant to be scary. With that in mind, let's look at some ways to make it scary.


From my experience, fear comes from how much control a player has. This applies to both his control of knowledge and his control over the situation.

An example of fear from lack of knowledge is how the first time you play ZM you're scared of drifters because you have no idea how they work or what they're capable of, but once you learn all they do and how to avoid them they cease to be scary.
An exmaple of fear from lack of control is how in Left 4 Dead when you're the only one left, you're terrified of how in a fraction of a second you can become completely unable to do anything. However when you have your team who can help out the fear goes away because there's nothing to be afraid of.
The Hidden: Source is consistantly scary (that goes for everyone who says multiplayer games cannot be scary) both because you don't know where te hidden is, and because you don't have control over when and where he will strike.

So in order to make this game scary, we must overcome the first two obstacles. ZM isn't scary because 1) you know everything that's going to happen and that assures you, and 2) you almost always have complete control as you can outrun almost all zombies and choose when to encounter them.

Notice how banshees are scary (see: Marphy's banshee spray full of bullets in games other than ZM) because when they show up, you're ability to hit them is not orderly. Furthermore they usually arrive without notice.



Alright, so let's make this scary. Here's an idea I've been toying with:

Instead of having a number of classes to choose from, make a standard zombie base unit and branch from there. Allow me to elaborate much further.
So for starters, completely overhaul the shambler into something that isn't the shambler. Frankly, shamblers aren't scary.
The first thing to change would be animations. The hl2 zombie walk animation takes away from the zombie because we know exactly what it is and what it does. I propose we mix it up by blending two or three animations (in the episode 2 commentary, valve explains that this is what they did to easily make a ton of animations for the combine soldiers walking across the bridge when you come out of the antlion tunnels). That will help the zombies looks more random and shambly and cause the players to never predict what they see.

Second, change the attacks. Instead of just playing an attack animation and you taking damage, have the zombie grab onto you and go for a bite. Think of it like a hunter pounce that gets off after the damage is done; players can shoot it off, but to keep things uncertian have how long the attack animation takes be random so players don't go into a mob knowing what hits them. The end result will be zombies that you can't squeeze by or get too close to. One grabbing on will give the others time to move in. Not so avoidable now are they?

Alright those are the two main changes. Now for how the classes work. Instead of choosing classes which are visably different, have all zombies be the same which you can add special atributes to. The effect is you see a mob of 10 zombies, but little do you know one of them will burst into flames and run at you when you get close. Clearly not all the old classes can make it over, but we're left with enough creative licence to make original ones. Now the reason I'm suggesting this is actually twofold.
1) Fewer zombie looks means we can spend more time perfecting one kind of zombie (clothes, animations, etc.) so there's less replicas.
2) By hiding special zombies in the normal ones, we give every zombie the potiental to be terrifying.

You're all the most fucking heartless people
JossiRossi
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« Reply #71 on: March 04, 2009, 03:38:24 am »

@Tanner: While it's incredibly easy for me to say start from scratch, I believe tGB suggested that it be done this way as a good way to learn coding in general and when things break you are far more likely to know why they do.

@Ajunk: Those are some pretty good ideas. All of which would be fully worth investigating. It almost seems like a zombie grab would be like a minigame in a way. Sort of a "shake the nunchuck!" thing in a wii game. When grabbed you might have to make a perfectly placed punch at the zombies head to knock them back. This would always be difficult but also you get some randomness to the difficulty as to where the zombie may be when it grabs you.

Mr. Valvetime
McViolent
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« Reply #72 on: March 04, 2009, 03:43:24 am »

@Tanner: While it's incredibly easy for me to say start from scratch, I believe tGB suggested that it be done this way as a good way to learn coding in general and when things break you are far more likely to know why they do.
Did he suggest for me to learn coding? ;-; Yeah, I agree. It's to get a better feel for the OB engine since I've only messed around with the EP1 engine.
JossiRossi
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« Reply #73 on: March 04, 2009, 03:58:51 am »

Oh no, it wasn't directed toward you. It was a more of a In General comment. Particularly because we had lots of people being like "Let's do mod!" and they had no skills.

Mr. Valvetime
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« Reply #74 on: March 04, 2009, 04:02:34 am »

Nice ideas ajunk.
I still think that the flashlight as a weapon could have some potential, especially in dark maps.
Imagine yourself in a dark alley with a small group, only one of you has a flashlight, and then suddenly a zombies manages to come up behind you and starts strangling the survivor with the flashlight. All hell breaks loose as the only source of light vanishes and more zombies shamble towards you....

my game keeps crashing as it loads, (i have all the expansion packs including the apartment life) and i am hearing that it might possibly be a custom content problem? how do i remove custom content?
McViolent
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« Reply #75 on: March 04, 2009, 04:12:33 am »

Oh no, it wasn't directed toward you. It was a more of a In General comment. Particularly because we had lots of people being like "Let's do mod!" and they had no skills.
Ah, well still I need to get a feel for the OB.
goatfetus
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« Reply #76 on: March 04, 2009, 04:19:47 am »

I cracked open my c++ book and read through the first chapter, was lol wut and shut it.

conceptualizing, 3d modeling and a bit of mapping is the only thing I'd ever touch if I were on a mod team.

Remember Remember the 10 of December
Ajunk
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« Reply #77 on: March 04, 2009, 04:46:25 am »

Nice ideas ajunk.
I still think that the flashlight as a weapon could have some potential, especially in dark maps.
Imagine yourself in a dark alley with a small group, only one of you has a flashlight, and then suddenly a zombies manages to come up behind you and starts strangling the survivor with the flashlight. All hell breaks loose as the only source of light vanishes and more zombies shamble towards you....
Remember: Doom 3 lighting = not fun.

You're all the most fucking heartless people
Ajunk
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« Reply #78 on: March 04, 2009, 04:58:49 am »

So I had this other idea where the ZM attacks in waves using running zombies. The ZM plans the attack hypothetically using squads, waypoints, and triggers, then executes his plan. The zombies spawn as far down the track you set as they can without being seen or being within a certian radius and then preform the planned actions.

For example, let's say the survivors are holed up in the warehouse on DotD. At the begining of the attack 15 zombies run from the sewers whose orders are attack side barricade the side barricade (the one closest to the generator). 10 seconds after commencement, 40 zombies spawn and rush the front with the order to attack the first person you see. There's also a squad waiting downstairs who will rush anyone who tries to run through the basement and another one in the sewer if anyone walks out the side, which will also turn off the lights. Finally, 40 seconds after first commencement, a group of 10 zombies will spawn out the front and run through the opening with the order to attack the truck and ignore all else.

So this method is much different obviously. Special zombies would be worked in later, but more massive in ability (clings to ceilings, better at hitting barricades, explodes on command, especially fast). However a pro to this idea is that most of the work is basic code.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 05:00:53 am by Ajunk »

You're all the most fucking heartless people
OneTooManyZombies
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« Reply #79 on: March 04, 2009, 08:06:44 am »

Nice ideas ajunk.
I still think that the flashlight as a weapon could have some potential, especially in dark maps.
Imagine yourself in a dark alley with a small group, only one of you has a flashlight, and then suddenly a zombies manages to come up behind you and starts strangling the survivor with the flashlight. All hell breaks loose as the only source of light vanishes and more zombies shamble towards you....
Thing is this wouldn't work because if it's a shambler, drifter, etc it's just be a little shake of the screen, you turn around and shoot it in the face. If there was a hulk, you'd just hear it groan.

it's like when you press on a calculator screen and it turns purple
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Zombie Master  |  Zombie Master  |  Source code discussion  |  Topic: Ajunk's view on the future of ZM production « previous next »
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